i need some help from experts :)

RossGirl · 02-11-2004, 08:15 PM

well, joey is acting up again. but not towards pippin only towards me. it started on last wednesday. scott brought them home pig ears ( they are a very special treat) and pippin went to his crate to eat his and joey was on the living room floor. i walked past him and he layed his ears back and started a low growl. then i went up to him and started to pet his back and ears and he started growling louder. i put my hand in his face ( probably not the brightest idea) but i guess to challenge him to bite me. he didnt; just kept growling. scott walked over to him and gave him a neck shake and he stopped immeidately. he wouldnt growl as long as scott was standing with me but as soon as scott walked away he started doing it again. then on thurs i decided to try again and started to pet him while he was eating and he started to growl again at me. scott *again* walked over there and he stopped.

so,......i talked to a dog trainer my vet recommended for dog aggression on the phone yesterday... she was very informative but definetly told me things i didnt want to hear. she is sending me some class information in the mail and the next class is starting in April and is 125.00$$ she told me in teh mean time under no circumstances is joey or pippin for that matter allowed on the couch, bed etc.. she thinks joey feels he doesnt have to abide by my authority and that by letting him in bed with us lets him think he is equal. joey is a dog she said and needs to be dealt with on a dog menatlity. it bothers me that he shouldnt be allowed on the bed or couch etc etc. i can UNDERSTAND where she is coming from but i just dont know if she has good advice. i was never the pet owner who cared if the dogs were on the furniture. in fact it is a securtiy thing when they get in the bed with me or cuddle up to me. but she said with an aggressive dog you cant let them be in control. i fear for joey and fear he might bite someone, kids or anything, although he has never shown aggression towards people, just when food is involved and it has just been with me. it still scares me??
i have been noticing a shift between joey and pip, they are the same size now ( can you believe it and pip is only 6 mos) anyway, pippin is going up the stairs first, and outside first now, so my dog trainer for pippin said it just might be that joey is feeling threatened because of the alpha dog shift and that he needs extra reassurance right now.
please help me out if anyone has advice, comments or expeirence, i would appreciate it. i am going to do some more research into dog aggression and talk to my friend at the humane society.

Lixx · 02-11-2004, 08:29 PM

I'm no expert, but it does sound to me like an authority issue. Does he have problems obeying your comands? I would think that being on the couch or bed is okay as long as YOU ask him to be there. He should never presum he is allowed. Alternatively he should get off whenever you ask. This is definatly something ou want to nip in the butt, because it could lead to more aggressive behaviour - but I believe it is easy to curb. As for the dog trainer, make sure you do get references for her, before attending. And ask to attend a class as an observer, see if you feel comfortable with her methods. Hope all goes well

RossGirl · 02-11-2004, 09:20 PM

thanks for the advice, i think i am going to ask her if i can observe one of her classes, i never thought about that, but before i spend 125.00 and not get any help/results i want to try that

Lixx · 02-11-2004, 09:28 PM

No Problem. It's really good to go, gives you a feel of the type of person she is. People can be very different in person. Keep us posted!

clearjade · 02-12-2004, 01:26 AM

I'm definately not an expert in any way, but I think observing one of her classes would be a good idea before you give her any money. There are tons of dog trainers out there and only a few good ones, so see if you are comfortable with her style first.

It sounds like Joey sees Scott as the alpha male. Does he growl at Scott when Scott pets him while he's eating? Joey might be trying not to fall too low in rank in his 'pack' by trying to intimidate you. I hope you find some good information and figure out what is going on!

CTChin · 02-12-2004, 09:55 AM

Don't mean to hurt your feelings but Joey definitely sees you as "beneath" him in the pack. I would for now follow the trainers advice totally Then as Lixx states only allow him up on the furniture with your permission! This is very serious. These type of problems rarely go away on their own.

I have a pack of 4, including two dobermans. I make every dog sit before they eat or get a treat...no exceptions. This may sound silly but this lets my dogs know I am boss and they need to respect me if they want to do their favorite thing...EAT!

This trainer sounds very knowledgeable. The only time I would be worried is if the trainer encourages you to man-handle (treat your dog roughly) for respect. There are tons of ways to get your dog to respect you with out physical contact. The neck shake that Scott gave him is probably o.k. because dogs understand this from when they were puppies and their mom disciplined them. For you to try that at this moment may put you at risk for being bitten so I wouldn't recommend it.

Best of luck!

RossGirl · 02-12-2004, 01:03 PM

thanks ctchin, it doesnt hurt my feelings. i sort of figured it out a while ago

the funny thing is i do make him sit for everything. i make him sit for food, for going out, for getting his leash on etc etc. but he definetly sees me as beneath him. the trainer also recommended a book about childproofing your dogs, tips on aggression, if i feel up to it later i am going to run to borders and pick it up.

Rincewind · 02-12-2004, 01:11 PM

I always flip my dog on his back. This is something that dogs always do when playing to establish who is dominant. If they are pinned on their back then they are submissive. Try picking him up (if you are still able, they grow so fast) and flip him over. Just hold him there, no petting or treats then let him up. Repeat it a bunch of times over the day and if they ever show any aggression towards you. If he won't let you do it ask your hubby to do it then you can walk over and put your hand on him to hold him down (with hubby nearby).

Another thing I've learnt is to hand feed your dog. I know it takes ALOT of time but it definately does work. If you control the food then you control the dog.

Good luck and I have to agree with everyone, seeing a professional trainer is a good step

RossGirl · 02-12-2004, 03:56 PM

yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah

i am sort of glad i was sick today because it gave me a chance to do some researching into some trainers. this place where we took joey from the time we got him till he was almost a year had to close down over the summer because the owner was having heart problems. so the original trainers were kinda left without a job and that sort of forced me to take pippin to petsmart ( which i hate but a whole other thread) anyway, i managed to contact his old trainer jennifer, and she is doing training again at a new facility that the other trainer bought and kinda took over the sick ladies work

yeah yeah yeah, the class is starting on march 10, just in time for pippin's to be done with at petsmart and she had some great ideas about joey's aggressivness.
she thinks part of it is that he is now going through adolescents, (which he never did) and just challenging me. we have to go back to the reward/punishment system. not physical punishment, just taking some of his freedoms he has away. like not letting him sleep in our bed. and confining him at night to a small area ( our landing outside our bedroom before the stairs will be perfect) and making him earn the privlege to sleep in our bedroom again. feeding him from a bowl piece by piece from my hand. crating pippin while i am doing this and if it takes hours then it has to take hours. i dont think i am going to try any of these new changes till tomorrow night. that way it is the weekend and i can spend a lot of time with him.

at least i can go back to a trainer i know and trust and i dont have to go through the stress of finding someone new and building that whole relationship all over again.

rincewind, we try to flip him but joey has never been comfortable on his back, he bucks and scratches anytime we tried to do it. but.......i am going to try anything i can, and i am just going to have to be extremely patient and it has to be some new rules around here. i have begun to learn from my mistakes

he he someone once said "we always ruin the first dog" but i think we just learn from our mistakes on the second one

Candycane · 02-12-2004, 04:04 PM

This is going to be a long shot...but here goes...

As most of you all know, my cat Max was/is a feral. He is usually a really nice but once his instincts kick in, look out!

He seems like a completely different cat, he will growl and hiss, try to bite us, and literally attack us in certain circumstances.

We give them wet food, as a treat, every night. Depending on what wet food we give Max, he could be a complete sweetie or a holy terror. If I feed him something that is close to real meat (for example, Wysong makes a 100% meat food), he will growl and hiss the entire time that he is eating the food...and don't even think of trying to take it away.

However, if I give him something less like meat, say, a can of Precise wet food, he is perfectly fine. I thought this may be part of the problem with Joey (the fact the pig's ears are close to real meat and maybe he REALLY likes them) because it seems particular to the pig's ears.

Here is a site on possession/food aggression that gives a 3 step program to help curb the behavior.

http://www.doglogic.com/possess.htm